Unholyfaith Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 About the DKP System: We are using a silent bid DKP system using an in-game DKP addon. The normal members will NOT need to run any addons. Only gear upgrades will be distributed via DKP. Most other gear (Patterns, Legendaries) will be distributed via Loot Council. Any items that are decided via loot council but are still a gear upgrade (Like legendaries) will still incur a DKP cost. All BOE’s that are main spec upgrades will be offered for DKP bidding. If nobody bids on the item, they will be put in the gbank for a period of a few days before they are sold for the benefit of the guild's gold stores. Anybody can purchase a main spec BOE item from the guild bank for minimum DKP. It should go without saying that you can only bid on a BOE item if it’s a main spec upgrade and you’re going to use it immediately. Anybody caught selling a BOE item obtained via DKP bidding will be immediately expelled from the guild. Crafting Mats will be auctioned after raid once enough of these items are accumulated to craft a single piece. Points are earned for raid attendance. All members are awarded 5 DKP per hour and all members are awarded 10 DKP at the end of the raid if they were there for the entire raid. Members who are wait-listed will still earn DKP as if they are in the raid but this DKP will be cancelled if you are not able to be contacted to come back into the raid. No members will be able to see anybody’s DKP other than their own. You should be bidding on how much YOU think an item is worth. The officers may award extra DKP on the first kill of a boss if it was a particularly challenging boss (To award everyone who showed up and wiped with us to get the boss down). All main spec items cost 5 DKP minimum. All off spec items cost 2 DKP minimum. Only eligible off spec bidders are able to bid on off spec items. Off spec means that you are bidding on items for a different ROLE with a different TYPE of gear needed. Examples would be a main spec Paladin Tank whose offspec is Ret or a main spec Restoration Shaman Healer whose off spec is Enhancement. An item with slightly better itemization is still going to cost you the normal amount of DKP and is not counted as an offspec item. The officers will decide who is eligible to vote on off spec items and a list of eligible off spec bidders will be maintained on our forums. Every character will only be able to have one off spec. The general rule of thumb is that a player must be able to play the off spec with as much proficiency as their main spec and must keep all of their gear properly prepared and come with necessary consumables for their off spec. The point of designating off spec players is to ensure that our raid has the flexibility to adjust for fights with different healing/tanking requirements or to compensate for absences in a specific role. How an item is bidded out: When an item comes up for bidding, the loot master will place the item into raid chat for MAIN SPEC bidding. The members will then whisper the loot master with how much DKP they wish to spend on the item. After all bids are entered (You only have about 15 seconds), the loot master will announce the winning bid and award the item. The winner will be the person who bid the most DKP and they will be charged 1 DKP more than the next lowest bid. (Example: Player 1 bids 10 DKP and Player 2 bids 15 DKP. Player 2 will win the item and be charged 11 DKP.) If nobody places a main spec bid, the loot master will then offer the item for eligible off spec bidders to bid on. Off spec bidders are only able to bid minimum for items and ONLY off spec eligible looters are able to bid on off spec items. If there are any ties, the tied players will be asked to roll and the highest roll will win the item and be charged for the item. If you bid for an item and are awarded for an item, you WILL be charged for the item. If the loot master is bidding for an item, he/she will whisper another officer with their bid before the item comes up for bid. This is to prevent the officer from bidding depending on what other people bid. DKP Decay and DKP Probation: We want to encourage and highlight recent activity over historical activity. Every week, everybody’s DKP will decay by 10%. This is meant to discourage DKP stacking (So people all spend DKP equally and get geared equally) and prevent DKP bullying of new members. We only raid two days a week so we need to ensure that the members who help us progress have a higher priority for gear than somebody who doesn’t. As such, there is a DKP probation status for members who are not meeting attendance requirements. All DKP will also decay by 50% at the start of a new raid tier. If any member has two unexcused absences or three excused absences in a rolling four week period but still claims to be active, they are put on a DKP probationary period. During this time, the member can only bid minimum bid on all drops. The DKP probationary period will last until the member has made four consecutive raids. New members are subject to the same DKP probationary period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazda Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 may i say that i am absolutely NOT a fan of this system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholyfaith Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 This is not final. FYI Rules are subject to change as we finalize details. This is a rough draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastric Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 What part are you not a fan of? Specific Flaws? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazda Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) What part are you not a fan of? Specific Flaws? Well, to begin with I need to say that I have never used a silent DKP system before... so there is that. It might end up being just fine. If I could pick, I would not make it silent and publish a list of the current DKP of every raid member after every raid. The way the system is now, it seems very much like loot distribution is almost random. Everyone is forced to bid on pretty much the next upgrade item that comes up, because of the very high 10% decay every week. If you dont bid - AND if you dont win (which will happen to most people anyways) - you lose your DKP. Yes, loot might be distributed more evenly - but on top of that: also much more randomly. Say we would have done this for DS and our strongest players are waiting for the heroic vial to drop. They could chose to do so in another DKP system... here, pretty much any member who has barely been in the guild for a few weeks has a big chance of getting that item. Besides all that: I STRONGLY encourage starting the DKP timer at 7.30pm SHARP. If people join the raid after 7.30pm, they will only get a % of the DKP. With 2 raid nights, we need to make sure people are online on time and ready to raid. We cannot allow anymore that raids start on average one full hour late like last raid tier. Please take this into consideration. Edited October 3, 2012 by Sazda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazda Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I do not hate it... i just am not a fan and prefer other systems way above this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 this is all subject to change, nothing set in stone yet, we are taking advice into consideration and seeing what would work out best for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazda Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 thanks bash - i know you guys try to be fair to everyone... just see what other people think. I got another question though: This is not mentioned above... do DKP work per player or per character? There are players here who habe multiple chars and sometimes are asked to bring another char to fill a specific role. Do these chars have their own DKP or does each player have a pool of DKP for all his toons? Either solution seems a little unfair in some way... wondering what you guys think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyntha Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Well, to begin with I need to say that I have never used a silent DKP system before... so there is that. It might end up being just fine. If I could pick, I would not make it silent and publish a list of the current DKP of every raid member after every raid. The way the system is now, it seems very much like loot distribution is almost random. Everyone is forced to bid on pretty much the next upgrade item that comes up, because of the very high 10% decay every week. If you dont bid - AND if you dont win (which will happen to most people anyways) - you lose your DKP. Yes, loot might be distributed more evenly - but on top of that: also much more randomly. Say we would have done this for DS and our strongest players are waiting for the heroic vial to drop. They could chose to do so in another DKP system... here, pretty much any member who has barely been in the guild for a few weeks has a big chance of getting that item. Nope. Under the proposed system, you'd earn 50 dkp a week at 100% attendance and lose 10% (So 45 if you don't spend it). The decay is to encourage spending DKP NOW. You essentially have more purchasing power if you don't hoard. This will ensure that the raid gets geared up more equally overall. Instead of one person hoarding DKP for that one killer item, he's encouraged to spend it or see diminishing returns on his DKP accrual. If a new member joined the raid and bought NOTHING, he'd have a max of something like 130 DKP. A veteran member would most likely be around 300 DKP or so. Vets still have purchasing power but it's not too punishing to new members. The Decay numbers are also open to debate. 10% was a random number I picked out. Would 5% seem more fair? Besides all that: I STRONGLY encourage starting the DKP timer at 7.30pm SHARP. If people join the raid after 7.30pm, they will only get a % of the DKP. With 2 raid nights, we need to make sure people are online on time and ready to raid. We cannot allow anymore that raids start on average one full hour late like last raid tier. Please take this into consideration. Hence the iron man bonus. A second timer is to be run starting at 8PM sharp (Or 7:45 or 7:30 or whatever we decide our start time is). When that timer is started, a snapshot of the current raid + wait list is taken. Once the iron man timer is stopped at the end of the raid, another snapshot is taken and compared to the first snapshot. Anybody who was in the raid in both snapshots (From beginning to end) gets an extra 10 dkp. So if you're there the whole time but late, you get 15 DKP. If you're there the whole time, you get 25 dkp.This is not mentioned above... do DKP work per player or per character? There are players here who habe multiple chars and sometimes are asked to bring another char to fill a specific role. Do these chars have their own DKP or does each player have a pool of DKP for all his toons? Either solution seems a little unfair in some way... wondering what you guys think about it. Each character's alts are registered to their main. If you bring an alt into a raid, you collect the DKP for your main and can the use the DKP on your main. I forgot to include it in the rules above, but I want for alt main spec gear to be equivalent to main off spec gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazda Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Iron man timer, did not know about this before - great. Now we just have to agree on a official raid start time, stick with it and enforce to start it on time... meaning: making sure an officer starts the raid invite prior to that timer start. A bad example would be yesterday (or many days last raid tier), but let's say it was a special case since its the first raid and us not knowing who can even raid at all etc. I think your idea about alts v mains is the best one could come up with. You are grabbing somewhat random numbers in your example above. We will just have to agree to disagree here I believe. I like 5% more simply due to the fact that we won't even have enough gear drop for everyone to win something even if they bid max DKP on every item. It just does not seem fair that these people should lose their DKP. Anyways - either way will work somehow... pick whatever number you guys feel most comfortable with. Last but not least: Have you guys considered publishing the total DKP list instead of hiding it? What are your pros and cons for that idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyntha Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 A bad example would be yesterday (or many days last raid tier), but let's say it was a special case since its the first raid and us not knowing who can even raid at all etc. That was my fault. My dad was in the hospital and is having surgery today. The timing is unfortunate but I needed to see him before Surgery. I raced back home as fast as I could but I couldn't be there on time. You know what my attendance is normally. I think I earned one late day. I think your idea about alts v mains is the best one could come up with. My apologies, it was thought out by me ahead of time but I forgot to include it in the draft. You are grabbing somewhat random numbers in your example above. We will just have to agree to disagree here I believe. I like 5% more simply due to the fact that we won't even have enough gear drop for everyone to win something even if they bid max DKP on every item. It just does not seem fair that these people should lose their DKP. Anyways - either way will work somehow... pick whatever number you guys feel most comfortable with. Most of the numbers are based off of existing guilds' practices but the Decay is a new idea and one that a couple of DKP guides highly recommend. Even stil, the number is more or less random. We will iterate on it. Last but not least: Have you guys considered publishing the total DKP list instead of hiding it? What are your pros and cons for that idea? Gump wants to keep it hidden. He has final say so give your feedback to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazda Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 no need to apologize for anything and it certainly was not your fault that raid started late last night... we have a million officers for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholyfaith Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 The general concern with posting everyones DKP numbers are people collaborating to spend as little as possible on an item. Or knowing exactly how much other players of their class have so you now what the most is they could possibly bid, letting you bid one over that and getting the item. Not showing the DKP amounts just makes it a little more fair, and people tend to bid what they think the item is worth, not what they know will screw other people. Snuggle and Gump will have to get together and finalize the config for the QDKP addon and push it out to all officers so we all have the correct configuration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyntha Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 The general concern with posting everyones DKP numbers are people collaborating to spend as little as possible on an item. Or knowing exactly how much other players of their class have so you now what the most is they could possibly bid, letting you bid one over that and getting the item. Not showing the DKP amounts just makes it a little more fair, and people tend to bid what they think the item is worth, not what they know will screw other people. Snuggle and Gump will have to get together and finalize the config for the QDKP addon and push it out to all officers so we all have the correct configuration. Gump is the loot officer and will decide the final numbers and final draft. Whatever he decides (Or decided), I support him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholyfaith Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 He wants to discuss the numbers with you. Fine with the rules, just wants to hash out the final numbers. And since you're more computer savy you might have better luck with the config file than Gump. I've configured it before so if either of you have a question let me know. Though it has changed a bit since last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazda Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 The general concern with posting everyones DKP numbers are people collaborating to spend as little as possible on an item. I understand the concern, but hiding dkp numbers will not "solve" this. People will still talk to one another. If a item for a specific class comes up (as example), one of two things will happen: 1) People collaborate and give the item to one person for a minimum price 2) People will bid as much as they possibly want to spend no matter if DKP is hidden or not (may it only be to increase the prize for the person that will end up getting it). Or knowing exactly how much other players of their class have so you now what the most is they could possibly bid, letting you bid one over that and getting the item. But as the rules say, you do not pay what you bid. You pay "one over" the 2nd best bid - making this statement pretty much void. Basically, hidden dkp promotes some kind of "black market" if you will where people start whispering to one another about bids on items that can come up from the next boss. Yes, they will also do it of dkp is know for everyone - but at least it is a more fair game. (i acknowledge that we are both using the argument "more fair" for our different points of view) In the end: whatever... i will be fine with either way, just voicing my opinion here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyntha Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 The general concern with posting everyones DKP numbers are people collaborating to spend as little as possible on an item. I understand the concern, but hiding dkp numbers will not "solve" this. People will still talk to one another. If a item for a specific class comes up (as example), one of two things will happen: 1) People collaborate and give the item to one person for a minimum price 2) People will bid as much as they possibly want to spend no matter if DKP is hidden or not (may it only be to increase the prize for the person that will end up getting it). Or knowing exactly how much other players of their class have so you now what the most is they could possibly bid, letting you bid one over that and getting the item. But as the rules say, you do not pay what you bid. You pay "one over" the 2nd best bid - making this statement pretty much void. Basically, hidden dkp promotes some kind of "black market" if you will where people start whispering to one another about bids on items that can come up from the next boss. Yes, they will also do it of dkp is know for everyone - but at least it is a more fair game. (i acknowledge that we are both using the argument "more fair" for our different points of view) In the end: whatever... i will be fine with either way, just voicing my opinion here Your opinion is appreciated and you bring up valid points. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viledead Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 One other issue that will come up, not now however. Saw it in previous guilds using any form of loot point system - and that is whether to reset or not for the next raid tier. It's important to set early on because people can get weird about it. What will happen if there isn't any form of reset is that you will struggle to recruit - fighting against a massive uphill battle. Hey bash (well, rugburn now too!) - remember Midi about this? Even though it was epgp it was still an issue. Also any classes/specs (ie holy pally's) that have low competition will take any shared trinket in almost any of these systems. Also if say a holy pally brings in an alt for a specific fight (ie need only 4 healers and no ret spec, but have alt rogue) then that alt using same dkp earned by holy pally can be an issue (will win everything pretty much). This will only happen after a few months of a current tier. Also per sazda there will be collusion - for instance some bow for hunters. Hunters talk before raid and agree to all bid 5 dkp for some amazing new bow. Of course it's obvious that collusion happened. I think it's a good system and will work well - just highlighting some issues that will probably arise in order to head them off.Also the probation period for 4 consecutive raids means the structure isn't casual friendly. It's ok because casuals have other means to gear up these days to at least not under-perform. But casuals likely wouldn't join a raid, all things being equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastric Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Me and Unholy came up with the first set of DKP rules used in wotlk. They seemed to work, other then the stock pilers, a decay could have helped. We had 6 dkp per 30min earning and i think 10 per boss down. Here where the "rules" for the OLD dkp *All two handed main hand weapons such as druid staff's and Warrior Axes, will be 75 DKP minimum bid. Fury Warriors who are trying to bid a two-handed offhand will still have to follow this rule. *All Main armor pieces (Helm, chest, legs, shoulders, and Hands) will have a 35 DKP minimum bid. *All non-main armor pieces (Wrist, back, belt, rings, and neck) will have a 35 DKP minimum bid. *All one-hander weapons (preist wands, rogue daggers, etc.) will have a 50DKP minimum bid. *All ranged weapons (Bows, guns, paladin librams, etc.) will have a 50DKP minimum. To add to this, hunters will have first bid priority for a ranged weapon upgrade since it is basically their main hand weapon. Anyone else who can use hunter ranged weapons (warriors, rogues, etc.) will have to wait till a hunter passes. *All Trinkets are 50 DKP minimum bid. *All Trophies are 50 DKP minimum bid. *OFFSPEC GEAR* Will be rolled on. Winner will be charged half whatever the minimum bid is for that type of item. (Rounded down. 75 will be reduced to 37 not 37.5) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazda Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) Some of the officers mentioned changes in dkp system for this week/tomorrow already. However, here are two problems I had tonight: 1) I guess everyone already talked about it - changing loot rules and not announcing it is just plain wrong. You should have reversed the loot decision and give it to the person that earned it according to the rules. That, however, I am sure is fixed now and will not happen again. I am in favor of the "get as many items as you like per boss" rule. 2) If one item drops and one person bids for it - that person should pay the min amount of dkp (by the old system). If two items drop and only two persons bid on it - they AS WELL should pay the min amount of dkp. It makes no sense that if two items drop for two people, that they pay more than if one item drops for one person. (example: Unholy paid min dkp for his item tonight, lamps and me paid more for our belts although noone else bid on it). We really should get our 5 or whatever DKP it was back, since this seems like a flaw in the system. Bottom line is this: The system as it is now works pretty well. I agree with the change of going to "get as many items as you have dkp for". ALL you need to do now is to change the wording of the loot rules to following: "The winner(s) of an item pay the amount of the highest NON-WINNING bid (inlcuding min bid)." So what that means is that if two items drop, the two winners pay A) THE SAME AMOUNT FOR THE SAME ITEM and as much as the third highest bid was +1. Going to a system where you pay a different amount of DKP for the very same item at the very same time seems pretty stupid to me. Edited October 24, 2012 by Sazda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholyfaith Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Thanks for your feedback. We are not changing rules for the remainder of the week, with exception to saying for sure a person can get multiple items from one boss if they are the highest bidder. The officers are discussing greatly simplifying how the system works, we'll have a final version updated and posted on the site prior to next weeks raid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebelogic Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Almost any loot system we implement will even its self out in the long run. Everyone wants the same things: A) To get loot Not to pay too much for loot. If someone spends a lot on one piece of loot, their fellow raiders who need the same type of pieces will get a few more pieces over the next week for a little less DKP knowing that the first raider doesn't have much. The following week, the original raider won't have to spend much on the same upgrades because he knows that the other raiders already have the pieces. On a longer timeline, people will all get loot and basically pay the same amount overall for all their gear drops. The AH works the same kind of way. You can put anything up there for as much as you want, if someone wants to pay a gigantic amount, then all power to him. However, 99% of the time, economics itself forces the prices down depending on the rarity of the item. In this way, gear itself, almost regardless of loot rules will each control their own price in our market. Ultimately, no one should be in fear of A) Not getting loot or Overpaying for loot. With Galleon, Sha, rep gear, crafted gear, Headless horsemen, Darkmoon Faire trinkets, bonus rolls with tokens, etc. Gear outside of raid boss drops early on in the tier, shouldn't be too much of a concern. Let's focus on downing bosses and individually improving on mechanics. At the end of the day, if a piece of gear goes to any good fellow raider, it is a good thing. Except for Mantra, no gear for Mantra! Like Unholy said, we will get the new DKP Rules Draft out to you guys soon. It won't go into effect till next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyntha Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 There is no right or wrong answer. What you are proposing would certainly work well but can be a bit confusing. The loot officers decided to go with a slightly different, more easily understandable system for the start of next week. A post will be forthcoming. I don't give one shit about loot because the people who show up WILL eventually get all the loot they need. It's a means to an end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Loot will come, no need to worry about that, and I wont repeat what they already said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazda Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) That is all fine, but it still does not answer my problem. So I got screwed out of the pants by the officers last night and I paid too much for my belt. DKP systems (mostly) suck ass... and no offense, but the new one does even more than the old one imo Edited October 24, 2012 by Sazda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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